Want to do some dinosaur art?

NOW CLOSED

I am genuinely interested in palaeoart and the act of reconstructing representations of dinosaurs as living animals from the fossil record. Indeed for me it’s the final extension of what I do as a palaeontologist in trying to produce the information that allows us to bring these long dead animals back to life.

However, I’m well aware of the fact that a great many of my friends in this field struggle to make a living, and despite their willingness to produce works on my behalf (and those of others) they are often not renumerated to the degree they should be. This makes me feel exceptionally guilty, but there’s not much I can do about it. I simply don’t have the money available for such things and all I can do is showcase their works and talent. A number of other people have generously volunteered their services at various times and have been kind enough to produce work that links to my research. Even here though, I feel I’m picking on the select ‘few’ when I know there are many people out there (and a large number who read this blog) would have liked a crack at whatever new thing in being described.

Bearing all that in mind, I though it time to open something up to anyone. A chance for any person who is interested to get a jump on a project and produce something in relation to it. I have an interesting specimen which is being written up for a paper and I’m giving people the chance to illustrate this. If you want to join in, all you have to do is e-mail me, or add a comment below and I’ll send you what you need.

The ‘rules’ as such are as follows:

1. The images etc. I send are private and should not be published or sent around etc. to anyone until the paper is out. Nor for that matter should you publish any sketches etc. Sorry about this, but the research should be kept private and of course the museum that owns the specimen and the curators who looks after it have their rules too about such use. It’s pretty much normal practice though.

2. You should discuss this work only with me, or another person you know to be illustrating this. I’m not that secretive about my research, but equally I can’t control a disparate group of people either, so the easiest and ‘safest’ thing to do is this.

3. Any submission I get will be published on the Musings (credited of course) when the paper is out (assuming you want that!). If you have done something and it’s ready in time I will post it.

4. Assuming we get media interest in this, I will make all images available to the media (credited of course, and with your permission) and thus may get some serious online interest.

5. I will attempt to provide such scientific guidance and feedback for the work as far as possible to help this on it’s way, though of course I can’t necessarily give tons of help if I have a dozen (or maybe even many more) people to deal with.

Edit: 6. Following the first few comments I realise that just to cover myself in case of any eventuality I reserve the right to have to change these rules and especially limit the number of participants. I simply can’t help / handle dozens of people, so if *everyone* signs up I may have to cut this down / hold a lottery / something. I hope it won’t come to that, but understand that 100 people could sign up and I can’t offer the time to help them all and I’d be uncomfortable sending out this stuff to such a huge number of people.

What I really hope this is, is a chance for people who want their work to be seen and to work with me on a project (getting some real help about anatomy etc.) and, well, have their work seen and recognised. What I hope this is not and I’m trying hard to make sure it isn’t, is exploitative. I know loads of people out there simply want to paint and draw dinosaurs and rush to be among the first to do so when something new comes out. If that’s happening anyway, then here’s a chance for you to do that with the researcher in question and get a headstart and real feedback on the subject (even if there’s a whole bunch of people in the same position).

I should add at this point that the paper is really not much more than a sketch right now and I don’t expect to finish the writing for a good few weeks or even a few months and then of course there are reviews etc. I’ll be surprised if this is formally published in the next 3-4 months, and it could easily be twice that (and more if there are big delays or bad luck). Either way, time is on your side, so don’t feel you have tyo go mad and get scribbling, but be warned that I have only limited control over when the ‘deadline’ will be. The paper is not about a new species but deals with dinosaur behaviour.

So, if you still want in, drop me a line or add a comment below. In a couple of weeks, I’ll put together a package of photos and files and send them out and let you get started.

NOW CLOSED

 

48 Responses to “Want to do some dinosaur art?”


  1. 1 dmaas 01/11/2011 at 9:32 am

    Nice idea!
    Two responses:
    1) seems to me that a protected forum would be a great structure for communication, assuming I read your intent correctly that everyone is free to share with each other internally. If you think this would be helpful I could set this up for you on a restricted forum I run for client jobs.
    2) Do you think the number of participants should be restricted? (ie. for at least those illustrators not just in it for feedback / learning but ambitious for exposure). I’m thinking of agency pitches where you participate, but know that there are only a few other participants competing for the job. Thinking this one further, it would be cool to see this as a model – a match-making process for other authors / artists beyond this one.

    I’m interested either way, especially as you say that deadlines are not an immediate issue. Let me know if you’d like a forum key.

    • 2 David Hone 01/11/2011 at 9:40 am

      Hi David, thanks very much for the offer. Kinda depends how it goes really. When I dreamed this up, I had imagined it might be just half a dozen people but the more I think about it, this could swell enormously. I don’t want to put a limit of the number of people, but at the same time, I simply can’t provide *much* help to say 20 or even more (I just don’t have the time) and I’m (I hope understandably) a little uncomfortable about handing over all this stuff to a large group, most of whom I don’t know. So I was thinking of just a mailing list, but if you are willing and able to produce a temporary forum, that would be great, thanks.

      In terms of the ‘agency’ issue, I’m trying *not* to make it competitive. I’ll use whatever I’m given and will make no distinction – though obviously if the media etc. use some then they will only run with 1 or 2 of them. Like i said, I don’t want to exploit people (or for them to feel I am), and so i want to give anyone interested a chance. That means not going to my usual stable of friends and collaborators and being open. Though again, as noted, if 50 or 100 people want to pitch in then I’m in trouble….

  2. 4 mattvr 01/11/2011 at 10:22 am

    Pity I’m neck deep in Pterosaurs!(might find the time to jump on board!)

    I know there’ll be a bunch of people champing at the bit to be involved in this one!

  3. 5 Alex 01/11/2011 at 11:08 am

    Hi David! Long-time reader of the blog here, although I haven’t been commenting. I’m definitely interested in this! I’ve been drawing dinosaurs for a while but my anatomy could probably do with a bit of improvement, so this is a great opportunity!

    Alexander

  4. 6 Lab Lemming 01/11/2011 at 12:10 pm

    Dinosaur art? What about Ichthyasaur art?

  5. 9 Brad 01/11/2011 at 12:35 pm

    Cool, count me in.

  6. 10 Ville Sinkkonen 01/11/2011 at 12:47 pm

    I would certainly be interested. Count me in.🙂

  7. 11 Traumador the Tyrannosaur 01/11/2011 at 2:15 pm

    I love your disclaimer. More people (outside palaeo) need to acknowledge the underfunding for the sciences. It kills the trickle down approach of economics that capitalism supposedly delievers😦

    I worry about these sorts of calls for “outsourcing” FREE art though.

    This is not a personal attack against you Dr. Hone or this project (if anything you’ve been more than upfront and honest about your intentions), but sadly this is not the only such “offer” from a palaeontologist I’ve seen this year. We’ve had one come through ART Evolved, and I know of another.

    I understand and completely believe your (and the other scientists) intentions are noble for letting unknown artists have a shot at legitimacy, and yet met your art needs on a budget of nothing. For that I respect you guy (very honestely… so please read what is to follow in a friendly but concerned tone… not angry).

    The problem is that the cumulative message from every scientist doing this (while independently acting on noble intentions) is that we amatuers are in essence a form of free palaeo-reconstruction sweatshop. I know that is not what you envision or intend for, but if this model of call out emerges as a mass means of looking for palaeoart that is what we are looking at… A system where artists time and effort are seen as trivial and not valuable at all.

    My problem is NOT the lack of monetary payment. There are some who will get on your case about that. I’m not one of them. I never envisioned or deluted myself into thinking I could make a living off my art (that alone palaeoart). That is why I trained and am employed as a teacher. However as my art is something I do in my spare time, I want something back for my time investment if I’m going to invest in a piece as much as a professional level reconstruction.

    In group outsourcing scheme like this I’m essentially in a sort of creative and talent based bidding system, where the only reward I recieve is a degree of critique on my work and effort. If I am choosen as a “finalist” by either yourself or the media than I win acknowledge. Cool. That is desirable.

    Only the odds are stacked for me to lose (especially if this gets the interest you’re no doubt hoping for). All I’ll be left with is crushed ambitions, a lot of wasted time, and really nothing but another portfolio piece (and really anyone in palaeo paying attention will know it is a REJECTED piece from your publication… which could detract from my portfolio rather than help it).

    I just hate the concept of so much energy and art being poured into something, and only a fraction of it gets used.

    Instead why not call out for portfolios? Select someone based on old work (people can pad them with new work for sure). This creates a lot less waste art and effort.

    If I sign up to do a piece for free, I should be guranteed I’m the only one in the running to get the gig. Again my artistic efforts might not be worth money in the current market, but my time and effort should be worth the payment of guranteed publication and acknowledgement the same way your paper is!

    The offer of input from a scientist on a piece is great. I would say this is definately an appealing part of the offer. However you’ve set up a bottleneck for this, and I’m hesitating here again. Its another prize I might very well not get, and be out on more time I could have used for productive things.

    Why not instead set up an open palaeo-art clinic or project around an already published specimen, rather than a top secret specimen you can’t talk about openly.

    I’m in the midst of setting up the palaeo-art database through ART Evolved. We’d love for such input from a certified palaeontologist.

    There certainly is a place for open sourcing and community efforts (we’ve been thriving on it on ART Evolved for 3 years!). However compeitions on non-paid new art is not one of them!

    • 12 David Hone 01/11/2011 at 2:49 pm

      Hello,

      I do totally get where you’re coming from and I did speak to a couple of people about this before I started to try and see what the concerns for something like this might be and how I might address it. I’m certainly not trying to cause problems. I guess my take was this (or rather based on these considerations) my thinking ran more or less as follows:

      1. People will draw this stuff no matter what I do or what already exists. Literally within hours of Zhuchengtyrannus coming out there were three or four new pieces on DeviantArt. So even if I did nothing here (or on any of my other works) people are going to be drawing them anyway.

      2. Further to this, in fact I do have people actively approaching me and asking if they can do things for me – either *because* they enjoy it, or because they want to be involved and get into science / build a portfolio.

      3. WRT 1 & 2, I can’t stop people, and I’d rather encourage them. And if they’re going to do it anyway, then if I help, I am at least encouraging them and providing (hopefully) useful feedback.

      4. People do seem to get left out since in general I can’t accept every offer, or there are people I want to work with / prefer to work with / produce stuff that makes me want to collaborate.

      5. As such, by doing something like this I hoped that I could be all inclusive (if you want to go you can), I’d provide genuine feedback (otherwise not available) and would not be exploiting anyone (since while it IS an open call, I’m making no demands or requests as such and many / all of these people would want to do this anyway).

      I guess the only obvious ‘problematic’ thing I can see based on your comment is that I will get to use this stuff. Well, I am giving up my time to help so I would hope I’d get a little back. If anything if I do end up with 30 pictures then I’ll be investing much more than I put in since, well, you only really need one picture to illustrate a new specimen / paper. And there is already a competitive aspect (people rush to get these things out) by giving everyone the same start (now) and finish (publication) line it almost cuts down on this.

      I get you’re point about ‘not getting the gig’ but that’s why I’m being up front about all of this and saying I’ll publish everything I’ll get (nothing will get ‘rejected’ or a higher / lower billing than anything else). Sure other outlets might pick up on this (and there’s never ANY guarantee any media will be interested in any given paper – I’ve put big effort into press stuff and fallen on my face and had huge interest in stuff I deliberately didn’t push to the press) but that’s not under my control. If anything, I’d imagine the people to miss out might be more like Luis Rey, John Conway etc. who while obviously like being paid, do do things at reduced rates on occasion because it can build into advanced things for them and help get them main gigs. Even when there’s no money, I often hawk stuff like this to my friends like these as there’s a chance they are doing something like it already and so I can give them an edge with something new and of course get something back. And they are already suffering from large number of people doing things for free as it is which is it’s own issue, if heavily related.

      Anyway, I do know where you’re coming from and I know you’re not directing that at me. But equally, given your (understandable) concerns, I thought it best to lay this out a bit more fully as to how and why I’m doing this. And I would add that I sure as hell don’t see it as a model for future collaborations, purely and only, a chance for me to help people along.

      I like the idea of a workshop etc. but between the blog, AAB, Pterosaur.net and work in general I don’t have the time or, to be honest, motivation. I’m making the effort for this big one-off and that’s it. If it helps, well great, if it’s a failure and I annoy a lot of people, well I tried with all good intentions and lessons learned.

      Hope that helps clarify / clean up / progresses the discussion.

      • 13 Robert A. Sloan 01/11/2011 at 7:44 pm

        Here’s a thought. If you get a lot of volunteers and more artworks than you can use in the paper, you could do a Musings post that’s a gallery of all the student works. “28 views of Mynewsaurus” with everyone credited, everyone getting at least an online showing all at the same time once the paper’s out.

        Everyone that finishes the project, that is. From my experience with big projects there are always some people who sign up and work on it but don’t come up with finished results, or hate what they did and back out without showing it to anyone.

        I’m into doing it for your guidance and corrections. I’m getting good at wildlife. Every time I do living animals or birds, I’m getting closer to the skills I need for good reconstructions. Recent master courses in landscape painting have bashed my skills to the point where I won’t just be floating the animal on a white background but putting a bit of authentic researched vegetation and some natural features behind it. Suggestions on vegetation would be very appreciated.

        Even if mine doesn’t make the final cut, I expect to come out with an attractive, accurate painting. If it’s displayed on Musings instead of illustrating your paper, then I’m still getting some exposure and have the satisfaction of knowing I did something well.

        One time-saver you could employ for too many volunteers is a checklist for basic problems with paleo-art. Items like “check proportions,” or “stiff pose” could help save time writing out the explanation and what to do to fix the problem. This is why I’ll be doing lots of preliminary drawings. I know I’m not likely to get it perfect on the first go. It’s the final one that I want to paint well enough that it could be used for your paper even if it’s not your final choice.

      • 14 David Hone 01/11/2011 at 7:48 pm

        “Here’s a thought. If you get a lot of volunteers and more artworks than you can use in the paper, you could do a Musings post that’s a gallery of all the student works. “28 views of Mynewsaurus” with everyone credited, everyone getting at least an online showing all at the same time once the paper’s out. ”

        That’s exactly what I had intended. If it wasn’t clear these will not be going into the actual paper. It’s rare enough to publish one life reconstruction, I certainly can’t put in dozens.

        As such, there’s no ‘final cut’ to make.

  8. 15 Bryan Riolo 01/11/2011 at 2:27 pm

    I am very interested in this project. Working with a paleontologist ought to help me to learn, and it is time I put my work out for peer review. After all, I have made plenty of remarks about other artists’ work, sometimes critical, so why not do this?

  9. 16 Thespesius 01/11/2011 at 3:04 pm

    I’m quite interested in this this, but i don’t have an online portfolio. Can i still join?

    • 17 David Hone 01/11/2011 at 3:07 pm

      Nothing at all is required other than a willingness to participate under the ‘rules’ laid out above. Some talent for art would probably help though😉

  10. 18 Traumador the Tyrannosaur 01/11/2011 at 3:27 pm

    Just for the record I meant no ill intent Dr. Hone,

    I expected those were you thoughts and motivations, and they are completely sound. I also completely respect and admire your intentions.

    I just wanted to raise these issues in public for everyone’s consideration.

    I’m over the moon that you want to take on universal feedback for artists. I was under the impression this was only for the “finalists”.

    I’ve been fighting for more scientist input into amateur art on ART Evolved forever, and you are the first palaeontologist to offer this openly on the web. I’m thinking a huge tribute post is in order!

    I did want to clarify though, from my own experience working with scientists on reconstructions, the effort on any single piece is hours for the artist and minutes from the scientist. NOT that this is downplaying your intention to offer this support to multiple artists, for you that potentially becomes hours and hours. I tip my hat to you sir. I appreciate that work is work!

    I just mention that time ratio for the public record again.

    I will be endorsing this callout on ART Evolved (in addition to David Maas promotion on the site already) as I’m very impressed and humbled by your desire to offer your insight to all interested artists Dr. Hone (especially given your intensive and extensive outreach efforts already in progress).

    I just wish the other outsourcing requests had come with similar offers of feedback to ALL participants. In these other cases, one that was hosted on ART Evolved, only final pieces were requested. If there was the reward/payment of a scientific evaluation and feedback on every piece, I would retract my concern over outsourcing.

    So I then hope this model of mass auditions catches on.

    • 19 David Hone 01/11/2011 at 3:42 pm

      “Just for the record I meant no ill intent Dr. Hone,

      I expected those were you thoughts and motivations, and they are completely sound. I also completely respect and admire your intentions.”

      Totally understood. But at the same time, I could see exactly where you were coming from, so I wanted to make it as clear as possible how I\d got here and why.

      “I’m over the moon that you want to take on universal feedback for artists. I was under the impression this was only for the “finalists”.”

      That was always the intention. And I will give that regardless. My last minute shift (the added ‘rule’ 6) was simply because when I wrote up the post I perhaps stupidly / naievely / whatever assumed I’d have 5-10 interested parties, most of whom knew what a dinosaur looked like, basic anatomy etc. and while it could get tough, i could probably handle giving detailed feedback as necessary to them all. I suddenly then realised that if 50 people sign up and some of whom have never done this before, then I’ve horribly over-committed and I can’t provide much service except ‘drive-by’ comments on issues as I’ll be buried. Hence the sudden backtrack and possibility of only taking on a limited number of people, or (ideally, well, not ideally, but you know what I mean) limiting my input. I really just didn’t want to give the false impression of people expecting detailed notes and skype conversations from me when I might have barely enough time to see all the entries and updates each week. Or if I was going to commit to that level of involvement, it has to be for a managebale group of people. In short I guess it depends, if 10 people say yes, then expect a fair bit, if it’s 50, well, a lot less.

      “I’ve been fighting for more scientist input into amateur art on ART Evolved forever, and you are the first palaeontologist to offer this openly on the web. I’m thinking a huge tribute post is in order!”

      Let’s see how this goes first, eh?😉 I try, that’s it.

      “I did want to clarify though, from my own experience working with scientists on reconstructions, the effort on any single piece is hours for the artist and minutes from the scientist. ”

      Yeah and I’m well aware of that. Though it depends on the artist and art of course – some things I’ve had to work on have required considerable time on my part. Of course oddly enough, the better the artist (so the more basics and details are right like posture and scale pattern etc.) the less I’m required. And of course that fits with my above point. 50 ‘Luis Rey’-s would take less of my time than 2 or 3 of some people I’ve had to deal with on a couple of projects. And so since I don’t know which I’m getting I don’t want to commit and disappoint. I’d rather warn / disappoint up-front as it were.

      “So I then hope this model of mass auditions catches on.”

      Well just finally, I still don’t consider this an audition. I’m not looking for people to draw my stuff (i already have more offers of help than I do things I want drawn, believe it or not). I see it as an opportunity for other people, nothing more. Let’s see how it goes.

  11. 20 Andrey Atuchin 01/11/2011 at 4:28 pm

    Hello, Dave!

    Can I take part in it? It’s very interesting to me. And I’ll do my best to you.

  12. 21 Adam Dreifus (@Piscasaurus) 01/11/2011 at 4:29 pm

    Oh man, this sounds absolutely wonderful. I am completely in.

  13. 22 K. Capach 01/11/2011 at 6:54 pm

    I would love the opportunity to work with you on this! I’ve always wanted a chance to get some professional feedback on my work and would relish the experience.

    I’ve done paleo related illustrations for gaming companies in the past, but as I said nothing working with someone who is looking for technical accuracy. I’ve been wanting to push my artwork more into the technically accurate areas.

    Thank you for letting us all in on this.

  14. 24 Robert A. Sloan 01/11/2011 at 7:14 pm

    David, count me in! I’ve been doing some amateur reconstructions for a while now and a lot of cartoons for my granddaughter. I’d love to get the opportunity to work with a real scientist and have my work corrected till it’s as accurate as possible.

    The long time frame is perfect for me. I do several mediums – pastel, watercolor, acrylics, pen and watercolor and of course what I started with – pen drawing. I’d welcome the opportunity. I think your guidance and editing are worth it – and I’m an amateur. I’m not going to be trying to live on paleo-art but a good solid credit may give me the chance to do some commissions later on.

    I know I’m just starting up when it comes to this, but I’m also a professional artist in some other styles and subjects getting good money for cat portraits and landscapes. I feel like I’m ready.

    Keeping the project private till you publish first is no big deal. I’m working on a cat commission right now that’s a surprise for someone and keeping it under wraps till the recipient sees it first. That’s fantastic.

    Please let me know if I’m in. You have my email from my comments.

    • 25 Robert A. Sloan 01/11/2011 at 7:18 pm

      Okay, I counted up and I’m only volunteer number nine, so I hope there’s a good chance that you’ll accept my work for credit only. This is inspiring to me. I illustrated one of my father’s papers when I was ten years old – kept turning in the pencils for critique, then when he was satisfied with the pencil, I inked it. This is going to be like that – I’ll do preliminaries till you like it, then transfer the sketch and do a final version.

      Looking at the header for your blog, acrylics may be a good medium for the final version if you want color. For black and white drawings, pen after pencil would be a traditional look.

      I don’t mind also drawing the bones accurately as they are, that’s probably part of it. Definitely looking forward to it!

    • 26 David Hone 01/11/2011 at 7:33 pm

      Hello,

      just to clarify, I’m only providing scientific guidance on accuracy – you (and everyone) are free to use whatever medium / style etc. you want.

      And as for secrecy, it’s not so much about a ‘big reveal’ (though that helps) so much as the research aspect, these things are best kept private before they are ready. In part because there are, sadly, unscrupulous people out there who will try to scoop you (very rare, but with this many people and if I allowed free rein, it could go a long way) but mostly to avoid people getting mixed messages as various updates etc. appear. Best to have it all in one go when it’s ready

      As for who is ‘in’ or not, as noted above, I very much hope I simply won’t have to make any choice in this matter, that was only a pre-emptive warning about the *possibility*. So don’t worry yet!

  15. 27 Robert A. Sloan 01/11/2011 at 8:00 pm

    That’s great! Thank you! With this much time to do it right, I’m going to have fun with this and learn a lot.

    I just reread the post in detail and noticed the paper is on behavior with a known species rather than “mynewsaurus” so that may even make it easier. It’s going to be fun!

  16. 28 mattvr 01/11/2011 at 8:19 pm

    It’s important to remember this isn’t a competition of any kind. Perhaps instead think of it as a community workshop or tutorial.

  17. 30 Adam Dreifus (@Piscasaurus) 01/11/2011 at 8:50 pm

    Point of clarification from my last post: I’ve been recently working to write/illustrate a dinosaur themed children’s book, and I would be completely delighted to get some legitimate scientific feedback on it. It’s one thing to have fossil reconstructions and papers to look at for research, but there is always that nagging doubt in the back of your head that you are doing something wrong and have no way of knowing about it.

    Anycase, my email address is forscienceandpie@gmail.com

    • 31 David Hone 01/11/2011 at 9:04 pm

      Well theoretically *I’m* generally happy to help out a little with stuff like this, but, well as noted, it can get very time consuming very quickly and I simply don’t have the time to do that much. It might only take 5 or 10 minutes per picture, but well, there’s more than one, and you’re not the only one who wants help – it soon adds up.

  18. 33 Evan Boucher 02/11/2011 at 7:10 am

    This sounds great. I’m definitely interested!

  19. 34 Holly 02/11/2011 at 10:53 pm

    I am 16 and don’t have the skills for this, but I wanted to tell you that this is a great idea. I hope it works out for all involved.

  20. 35 Mo Hassan (@subhumanfreak) 03/11/2011 at 12:42 am

    Dave, I’m definitely interested… subhumanfreaks at hotmail dot com , cheers

  21. 36 Maija Karala 03/11/2011 at 6:18 pm

    Wow, this is a great idea. If there’s still room, I’d like to join. I have been doing amateur palaeoart for a few years, but rarely have the time or knowledge to do anything really accurate (though I always try my best). It would be great to get real feedback.

    If I’m not late, here’s my email: maija.karala at gmail dot com.

  22. 37 cegebe 04/11/2011 at 6:20 am

    Sounds interesting! I’d like to participate (I’ve sent you a mail as well, but I’ll leave a note here just in case …)

    C. Gertz Bech

  23. 38 Tuomas Koivurinne 07/11/2011 at 8:01 pm

    Just read this and yes, I’m interested. I have tons of work in my hands (as always) but I think I could come up with something. Are you putting restrictions for the medium used for the finished work?

  24. 41 Robert 08/11/2011 at 10:41 am

    Ahh hope Im not too late, I would like to get involved in this as well.

  25. 42 Stu Pond 08/11/2011 at 2:29 pm

    Sorry for lagging behind on this one, but been at the SVP in Vegas🙂

    Count me in.

  26. 43 dmaas 09/11/2011 at 1:37 pm

    Wow, some top talent here!
    I’ll have to nuke my calendar for this one…

  27. 44 Lukas Panzarin 14/11/2011 at 8:36 am

    The results looks promising…count me in!

  28. 45 Alan 15/11/2011 at 1:23 am

    I hope I’m not too late, I would also like to join in as well.

  29. 48 David Hone 15/11/2011 at 7:24 pm

    OK, this is now closed for entry.


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